Stoltenberg: A war with Moscow is out of the question
- By defencematters
The former Norwegian Minister of Defence and Foreign Affairs Thorvald Stoltenberg states that “it would be in the interest of Russia to understand, that it could be a great power, without having to obtain new territories”
By Andrej Matišák
"It would be in the interest of Russia to understand, that it could be a great power, without having to obtain new territories", says the former Norwegian Minister of Defence and Foreign Affairs Thorvald Stoltenberg (83).
The interview with him was conducted at the Forum on Cross-Border Cooperation in a Wider Europe held in the Russian city Nikel and in Norwegian Kirkenes. Jens Stoltenberg, the son of Thorvald, has recently become the NATO Secretary General.
We are at the Norwegian-Russian border, which is a border of NATO and Russia. Are we in a situation where a conflict between Moscow and NATO is imaginable, or do you think such a scenario is not an option?
It is not an option. It is not in the interest of Russia, nor Russians, nor is it in our interest. If I look at it from a Norwegian perspective, we have never fought an armed conflict with our great neighbour. Neither with the tsarist Russian Empire, nor with the Soviet Union, nor with contemporary Russia. I think it is very important for small countries to plan their foreign policy thoughtfully. The smaller you are, the more foreign policy you need.
Is it possible to learn from Norwegian foreign policy at a time of strained relations between the West and Russia in the time of a conflict between Kiev and Moscow?
We could learn from it that you need to work daily on peaceful relations with your neighbours. Especially, when it comes to a great power. This endeavour needs to be pursued for generations. However, I cannot give advice to Ukraine regarding their foreign policy. Norway also shares a border with Russia, but the history of our relations differ very much from the Ukrainian history. Moreover, history is very important regarding the formation of the foreign policy.
You say that a conflict is in nobody’s interest. What is in the interest of Russia?
It would be in the interest of Russia to understand, that it could be a great power, without having to obtain new territories. Or semi-new territories. The power of a country should be based on other factors than unleashing a conflict or using war. A well-functioning economy is probably one of the best ways to show your power today.
Moscow has annexed Crimea. The West argues that the Kremlin is involved in the military destabilization of Eastern Ukraine. So we could agree, that a war should not be an instrument of power, but this does not seem to be working.
You are right. What the Kremlin is doing now could strengthen the position of President Vladimir Putin in Russia. It seems many Russians look at the end of the Cold War as their loss of power. We were celebrating, but the end of the Soviet Union meant less influence in the world for them. Therefore, I understand, what Putin may be thinking. This does not however mean that the use of old military tools is the best strategy to gain power. As I said, there needs to be a functioning economy as a fundamental. This is true in the global context.
The image of Putin has suffered in the West. New emerging powers such as China or Brazil are not too worried about what Russia is doing in Ukraine.
Both of the mentioned countries, however, do have something in common. They are seeking economic development.
Who will convince Putin? Norway?
Putin is an intelligent person. This means, that he will understand by himself what he needs to do. I do not think that anybody needs to convince him.
When will he understand it? What will have to happen?
Maybe the economic problems that Russia is facing could be some kind of warning. A functioning economy is most important for people. This is how Putin originally came to power.
He improved the state of the Russian economy.
Exactly. I hope he does not want to use power, just because he can.
If you look at the Western reaction to Russian actions in Ukraine, in particular the sanctions, do you think it was wise to react in this way, or do you see some weaknesses?
Our response is a question of solidarity among democratic countries. To achieve this, we simply have to react when we are witnessing a clear breach of international law. What we have done so far has been relatively moderate.
So do you consider sanctions to be a necessary measure?
How could I just be sitting in a peaceful and rich Norway and complain about the sanctions? In particular, when they are in response to the violation of international law. Yet this is the best defence system for all the small countries. If we accept the violation of international law, we get small countries in trouble. So no, I do not have a problem with the sanctions.
Russia is also complaining about the violation of international law. It addresses the West and especially the United States to have a look at what they have done in Iraq or Kosovo.
My answer to Putin would be that I was against what happened in Iraq. I am no longer in a position to influence such decisions. Nobody asks for my opinion. I was also not excited about the developments in Kosovo. I do not think it was in anyone´s benefit.
It would be desirable, if the West would give clear answers to Russian complaints. Ok, so the war in Iraq was wrong.
The West does not have a clear opinion on this. That is simply a fact. It is not possible that the whole of the West would say this. Only individuals can say this. It should be the United States that declare it. I do not think this will happen. Let me say one more thing, suppose I was the Minister of Foreign Affairs at the time of the war in Iraq, the truth is that I do not know whether anybody would be following my opinion. As a Minister of Foreign Affairs, you are responsible for the interests of your country. It is not easy to stand up to a power.
Returning to the beginning, how would you describe the Russian-Norwegian relations? At the conference, there was a lot of talk about the common contacts between people. It sounds nice…
It does not only sound nice. It is nice. Let´s note that despite the growing tensions in the world we have satisfactory relations with Russia. Just recently, there were celebrations here of the liberation during WWII, with Russian participation.
Photo: Jonas Karlsbakk / BarentsObserver
